Behind the Voices: Roger Kemp on Faithfulness, Christian Media & God’s Hand

For more than 45 years, Roger Kemp has worked behind the scenes of Christian media, helping some of its most recognizable voices communicate biblical truth with clarity and excellence.

Roger began in the shipping department of Ambassador Advertising, duplicating reel-to-reel tapes and sending programs to radio stations. That entry-level position eventually placed him alongside Christian broadcasting pioneer Al Sanders and ministries led by Chuck Swindoll, James Dobson, John MacArthur, and others.

He later served as Vice President of Broadcasting and International Ministries for Insight for Living, became National Program Director for Salem Communications, and ultimately founded RK Media.

In this episode of This Is HIS Story, Roger joins Todd Turner for a deeply personal conversation about:

•  Coming to Christ at a Pilgrim’s Progress-themed summer camp 
•  How a painful family relocation shaped his character and calling 
•  Beginning his career in the shipping department 
•  Learning to write for the ear rather than the eye 
•  What Al Sanders, Chuck Swindoll, and Ed Atsinger taught him 
•  Why audio remains such an intimate and effective discipleship medium 
•  Seeing the power of God’s Word across cultures and languages 
•  Balancing business responsibilities with a ministry calling 
•  Processing disappointment and hurt within Christian ministry 
•  Writing through his wife Lori’s battle with pancreatic cancer 
•  Learning to recognize God’s presence during uncertain seasons 
•  His collection of antique editions of The Pilgrim’s Progress

Roger’s story is a reminder that a life does not need to be lived in the spotlight to have extraordinary influence. God works through faithful people serving behind the scenes, and sometimes we can recognize the pattern of His hand only when we look back.

Learn more about Roger and RK Media:
 https://rkmedia.co

Learn more about This Is HIS Story:
https://www.toddturner.com/podcasts/this-is-his-story-podcast/

Transcript

Todd Turner (00:02)
Today we welcome to the podcast Roger Kemp of RK Media, a great friend and a great guy. Happy to have you Roger.

Roger (00:10)
Great to be with you, Todd.

Todd Turner (00:12)
Roger people today know you as the leader of RK media and as somebody who spent more than four decades in Christian media. But before we talk about any of that, take us back to the beginning. What was life like for you there? The young Roger Camp?

Roger (00:27)
Well, I am the fifth of seven children. My parents were having kids over the span of 18 years. My oldest brother, my youngest brother, have an 18 year spread between them. was the fifth and three girls and four boys. And we had somewhat of an idyllic upbringing. My parents started their family in Wheaton, Illinois.

and the bastion of evangelical Christianity, at least up to a certain period of time. And so we have roots in Chicago. But in 1960, my dad was transferred to Southern California and I was three years old at the time. yeah, we had this little house, 1800 square feet, seven kids, two parents, a dog. And life was good. didn't have my dad was a blue collar worker.

and just parents, you know, grew up during World War II and my dad served in the Navy. So, you know, you can kind of guess the ilk, but my parents loved having kids. My mom was an only child and she was just sent out to have a lot of kids and boy, they did. So wonderful, wonderful upbringing, great siblings. We still all get along.

today and and good start.

Todd Turner (01:56)
Well, that is so much more like mine. My dad was in the Navy and I tell people all the time I grew up in a bubble like I never saw my parents by same kind of ideas. It's a group in a perfect, perfect world. Did you grow up in the church? Were you a church kid from day one or was the family?

Roger (02:15)
Yeah, my parents

had a conversion experience when they were in Wheaton when my dad came home from the war. They actually had been married about five years and they both grew up in the church and sort of walked away from that. But five years into their marriage, they had a conversion experience and really got serious about their faith and never looked back on that.

And so, yes, I was raised at Fullerton Evangelical Free Church in Southern California. That's where I grew up and had a great experience there.

Todd Turner (02:53)
Wow, so tell me your story. I'm assuming it's like mine. I tell people sometimes I envy people who live this crazy wildlife in the dark. They find Jesus and everything changes. But when you grow up in the church, I feel like it's sometimes tough to say, would you really realize, I get it. Like you've been told it, you can recite verses, you go to vacation Bible school. But at some point, there's gotta be this thing of like,

get what you're talking about. okay. That's what faith looks like. Did you have that moment and what did it look like?

Roger (03:29)
You know, we all have seasons in our faith, right? Especially for those of us who have decades of experience in the faith. And my coming to Jesus actually happened at a summer camp in 1966 when I was at the Hume Lake Christian Conference Center wagon train camp with my brother. And I still have the group photo that we took.

back then, a lot of shenanigans that week. But I had a real genuine Friday night at the fireside, come to Jesus moment. It was very real. It was well led by the leadership. And growing up in a Christian home, know, that was, I would say somewhat unusual because it was a moment where I realized my faith had to be mine.

But getting back to the seasons part, you test that along the way, especially as a young person. I had some milestones through high school and college, times of doubt and times of decision and really times of saying, no, I'm all in on this. But over the course of my life, I really had a sense that God had called me out to serve Him.

Now that I look back and have, like I said, I'm going to be 70 next year, so I do a lot of looking back. But when I look back, I can see the threat of his hand on my life and really feeling like he called me to do what I'm now. And, you know, I often tell people that when I was young, I wanted to serve God in the worst possible way. And I do believe that I have found the worst possible way.

Todd Turner (05:18)
Yeah.

Roger (05:21)
Yeah,

little rim shot there. no, there's a real sense that because I've been doing the same thing for so long that God really had his hand on me and orchestrated things to be where I am today.

Todd Turner (05:36)
Well, so I'm gonna make you go back here. So you graduate your camp experience obviously where you were below 18. I mean, it's not like you sign up for a life of ministry, maybe a life on mission, but you go to college, are you thinking career? Where were you headed and how did your ministry and your vocation collide?

Roger (06:01)
My story would be incomplete if I didn't talk about 1973. And I hope I don't bore people with this. But 1973, you can think back, great pressure on the economy. I was a sophomore in high school and

getting ready to go in my junior year, if you remember high school, know, junior year, that's a big deal. That's where everything comes together. I was on the football team and in some leadership positions, active at church, active at high school in Southern California. And my dad's world fell apart on the business side and he was let go, his company downsized and he was without a job.

And it was also the time with the seven kids, we're like the 12 tribes of Judah. We were all spread out. You know, I had older brothers going to college and my sister in nursing school and my brother did an overseas trip when he graduated from high school. We all kind of scattered in 1973. My dad took a job, not in Southern California, but in Boston, of all places.

And that was a schizophrenic experience for me because I was a beach boy from Southern California that got displaced when I was 16 years old and went back to Boston for two years. And that really shaped my character in ways that are profound today because God used that. We went from a household of seven kids to a household of three kids. It was me and my younger brother, younger sister.

And my dad was struggling with his job. It was not a happy experience for him. And of course, my mom got displaced too. it was, was everything got upset and but God used that to forge my personality and do some things in my spiritual life. I decided to go to Moody Bible Institute when I graduated from high school in Boston. And that too was a decision that was framed out of a history that our family had with Moody, but

but also deciding, you know, I don't really know what I want to do with my career. I certainly don't want to do what my dad did because that was hard. And I'm watching him go through this painful time in his life. I think I'll go study the Bible for a couple of years because I know that won't hurt me and I'll figure it out there. And that's pretty much exactly what happened. I had three years at Moody. It was a three-year college at the time, not a four-year.

I took a Bible theology major, studied the Bible, and for a kid who went to church all his life, I was a little embarrassed by how much I learned at Moody Bible Institute because I missed a lot growing up. Anyway, I learned a lot about the Bible, and that definitely, I look back with tremendous fondness towards that downtown urban experience in Chicago going to Moody.

Todd Turner (08:50)
Ha ha ha!

Roger (09:08)
Learning what I learned and then seeing city life and changing my worldview, God used that. It another formative period in my life.

Todd Turner (09:19)
So you knew you didn't want to be a pastor necessarily, but you did want to study the Bible and then see where it took you.

Roger (09:28)
Yeah. I, you know, what happened Todd is I came, I, I'd had enough of the Chicago life. I really wanted to come back to California when I was finished at Moody. And that was more a weather thing and a family thing. The family began to regather in Southern California. So I moved back there and part of my story is that I fell in love with a young gal, my freshman year at Moody and

When we both graduated from Moody, we weren't quite ready to get married, but we knew we had this relationship that we wanted to continue to cultivate. She moved out to California, moved in with a girlfriend. I moved out to California and an old buddy of mine from Fullerton, we shared an apartment. Within a year, Lori and I decided to let's get serious about this, let's get married. So in 1979, we got married.

In that same period, I ran into friends from our church. Again, our family was rooted at Fullerton Free Church. Chuck Swindoll had just become the pastor there in 1971, and our families formed a friendship. Al Sanders owned this little agency in Southern California, and he had just helped Chuck launch a radio program.

You know, everything converged at that moment. I ran into the Sanders family and was invited to join the staff at Ambassador Advertising Agency, which was the organization that launched Insight for Living and later worked with Jim Dobson and John MacArthur and all of the mainstay radio programs back in the 70s and 80s.

And I found myself working in the shipping department in 1979, same year I got married, which is now well over 46, 47 years ago. And I got a front row seat to Christian radio and Bible teaching on radio as we know it today. And little did I know I'd be doing that very same thing for decades later.

Todd Turner (11:43)
I don't know if I've ever asked you this. What did you do when you moved back to California for that year before you got this job where you just, where you tried for a career and you're taking the job.

Roger (11:56)
Man, I floundered. I don't tell many people this, but I sold, it wasn't cutco knives. It was like that though. Who's a brush salesman at the door-to-door fuller brush company? I did that for about a week. I worked the front desk at a hotel. I was floundering. was trying to find...

Todd Turner (11:58)
Okay.

Yeah, yeah, wow.

Yeah.

Roger (12:22)
what I needed to do and of course I was finishing up my degree which I had to do when I finished at Moody. I wanted to get a full-fledged degree so I went to Cal State Fullerton and finished there in communications. So Bible theology and communications, it's really what I'm doing today.

Todd Turner (12:36)
Okay, so communications.

I was gonna say it couldn't have been better. It's so funny, Roger, I didn't know this until we started talking. You and I have such a similar path. My dad too lost his job right at end of my high school, beginning of college career. My world was turned upside down and I had my season and I worked at an art museum and a bookstore until I found what I was gonna go do. Like I find so many similarities, I had no idea we both had. Okay, so your front row seat.

You have a degree and you're working in a shipping department. I'm assuming it was the Wild West because that was sort of a, I guess you have very new industry. They're building this business model while you're in the door. What gets you out of the shipping department and into whatever else department? What was the journey like in that organization?

Roger (13:29)
Well,

two words, Al Sanders.

He and I were sort of cut out of the same cloth. Al Sanders is a pioneer in Christian radio. He's gone now. Beautiful man. Very creative. Creative on steroids. Nobody like him. Had a beautiful voice. But he saw something in me and trusted me to start. You know, those are the days where we deliver our radio programs on real, real tape. It was very...

tangible. My job in the shipping department was duplicating tapes and sending them to radio stations. He said, hey, I need you to edit some sermons for Chuck. Chuck was my pastor and I was all too happy to learn how to do that. Al taught me how to do that. He later taught me how to write. Those two skills, I came up through the creative ranks in Christian radio.

I had a couple of different roles, but I always loved writing, editing, producing. Content was my thing. Anyway, so Al was the one who allowed me to do that. It was a privilege to learn from him.

Todd Turner (14:49)
And did you, mean, as long as I've known you now, you are, you're a great writer, but you're also, it's your passion. You love writing. think it's, I think you'd probably rather be called a writer than anything else. If that's true. Okay. So did you, I mean, I think everybody has to learn and you, you exercise that muscle and you get better, but do you look back at that time and think, I really had something that was easy to build upon.

Roger (15:01)
True.

Todd Turner (15:17)
Or was it a struggle or was it exciting for you? Like, how did that writing journey go from that job even to where you are now?

Roger (15:26)
Well, I wish I had it with me to show you. I wish I'd thought of it. Al Sanders, back in the day, you know, we literally used typewriters to write the scripts. I mean, I hate to admit that. And he would correct them with a blue pen. He didn't use red because that would be too offensive. But he'd get my scripts and then he would correct them with a blue pen. And I have the first script that I ever wrote for him. I still have it. And there's more blue than...

Todd Turner (15:51)
They got destroyed.

Roger (15:54)
There's more blue than ink on the page. I'll tell you that. It's pretty funny.

Todd Turner (15:59)
Was he

was he good like was he a really good writer or some people are good writers?

Roger (16:03)
Yeah,

you know, the kind of writing we do, Todd, as you know, is for the ear, it's not for the eye. Nobody sees what we write, they hear it. And so there's an art form to writing for what's heard. And I've always liked that because when you think about it, back in the Old Testament days, guys didn't walk around with a Bible tucked under their arm. Those who had printed copies, extremely rare.

And you remember, of course, the story of Ezra, Nehemiah, and reading the scriptures, and people literally crying when they heard the scriptures. That's the way they consumed the scriptures. They heard it. It was an audio experience. And in a lot of ways, that's what radio is and podcasting is today, is an audio experience. But anyway, he taught me the craft of doing things for the ear, which is

because you break all the grammatical structure because we talk a lot differently than we write or read. And he taught me that craft. And it took a while, but I think the thing was I loved it and I had a passion for it. And there may be people watching us talk going, I have no idea who this guy is. He says he's in radio doing it forever. And I sort of like it that way. You know, our company today,

produces and distributes many names that our audience would recognize, but they don't know me. And I kind of like that because I'm rarely on the microphone. I often say I'm usually right next to the guy or the gal who is. And that's because I'm a support to that person.

But anyway, a lot of that is done with the crafting of the writing and preparing announcer materials. And it's just a large volume of writing. I still to this day just love that particular part of the craft.

Todd Turner (18:03)
Yeah, that's I don't know too far down the weeds on it, but you really got me thinking, you know, there you're 100 % right. There's there's something reading where you can stop and ponder and then audible where you're you want somebody to remember something or think deeply, but you're also on a time crunch, meaning you can't take someone too big of a journey because you've got a time limit. So you've got to really be efficient with your words, but not so efficient. It's poetry. You need them to.

get what you're trying to say. This has got to be an art form you've developed over the years. never pondered it. Yeah. Interesting.

Roger (18:34)
Yeah, you kind of talk in sound bites. You know, you got

to start and finish real quick.

Todd Turner (18:42)
Yeah, this is it. And then, of course, now you've grown into print and the world's changed since you came in, but you started with the radio. You're still there. And you've added on all the other mediums that have shown up in the last four decades.

Roger (18:57)
Well, it's so exciting that we live in an exciting day. you know, people ask me all the time, is radio dying? And yeah, certainly is changing, but it's not dying. It's changing a lot. And all these new opportunities are just more open doors to, we're content creators and it's always been about good content, solid content, credible content.

And so all these digital opportunities, you using this one, Todd, is a great example. Look what we get to do, two guys in two different places talking like this over a video screen and recording something that who knows how God will use it. But it's an exciting day.

Todd Turner (19:41)
Yeah, no, I totally agree. All right, I have a lot of nuanced questions, but let's put them on the shelf. Keep going. Why did you end that relationship and how long were you there and what opportunity revered itself for you?

Roger (20:00)
I was ambitious. I wanted to learn everything I possibly could. And so I was with Al Sanders for about 11 years. And during that time, they had a number of high volume broadcasts that were being produced on site in Fullerton and distributed over their network throughout the United States.

It was a super exciting time to be a part of that and work on various accounts. And Al Sanders had any one of us producers who were actually producing programs, we'd be assigned like four different programs that we would be responsible for. The volume was mind numbing of what we were working on, but fun. And at one point, finally, Chuck and Cynthia Swindoll, who were being produced there at

ambassador advertising asked me to be their vice president of broadcasting and international ministries. That was in 1991. So I'd been with Al for 11 years and moved over to be a leader at Insight for Living. And I was there for seven or eight years, I think. that, boy, was that a ride. That was, that was fun too.

Todd Turner (21:23)
Okay, I gotta ask you this question. Did they interact with you a lot in your role? And that's how they learn to like and trust you? Or do they already know you through church? Or was it a combination of both? How did that phone call happen?

Roger (21:41)
I had a lot of interaction with Chuck and Cynthia as a producer on the radio program. I was writing the copy for the announcer, the beginning and the close of the show. I was editing the sermons and I used to tell Chuck, I've heard more of your voice than you've heard of your voice, you know, and joke around with him and we had a great relationship. And yeah, I think it was fluid that way.

And they had a need in that particular leadership. And I was, I was eager to try something new and I was 33 at the time. And it was, you know, it my big chance to do something in a leadership role. And boy, did I learn a lot during that season. It was a beautiful time at Insightful Living.

Todd Turner (22:30)
And you never had to move, right? You got to stay in your same house or same situation, right? So it was a move up without too much of pulling roots out of your life. So how long were you in that? And were you in the same position the whole time or did that create a journey within that organization as well?

Roger (22:33)
Right. Right.

Yeah, it's, you know, I had responsibility to oversee all of the production of the daily radio program and its distribution. So essentially I was taking on the role that Ambassador was doing from position at Insight for a Living. Plus, they asked me to oversee the international ministry. And I, you know, I can't believe when I look back, I traveled all over the world during those seven or eight years, got my first passport.

and traveled to their international offices and we worked on translated languages of the program, got to see the world.

And during that season, got my I got bit by the bug of global missions. And once you see God at work beyond the borders of the United States, it gets in your bloodstream and never leaves you. So my heart is has always been since for what God is doing around the world. You know, as an American young person, just my.

Mind most blown and my eyes were open to what God is doing in countries where what we have is so rare in the United States. Choking on our own abundance, if you will, as it relates to the access to great Bible teaching and Christian radio. It's rare in other countries and people just clamor for it.

And that sense of purity for seeking after God in other countries was really fun to watch and be a part of.

Todd Turner (24:24)
All right, so I'm gonna ask you a question that probably is better for the end, but I'm gonna hit you with it right here. I had this conversation with someone yesterday, this is fresh on my mind, and I said the same thing. Once your eyes get open to a world that's outside the American Christian culture, you can't go back. And so my question to you is, did that spur any career ambitions?

or career changes or did that just put a love in your heart and you've you do that on your own on the side now through missions or giving or whatever or have you kept that that desire for international work or whatever that word would be in in your life since then or your professional life I guess.

Roger (25:13)
I would put it this

way, Todd, that let's go back to, we haven't talked a lot about the content of the programs that we're producing. A lot of it's Bible teaching, family issues programs. We work with Voice of the Martyrs, a persecuted church. But, you know, when God's Word is powerful, the programs that we're putting together are not entertainment.

You know, they often say the difference between Christian television and Christian radio. I hope I don't offend anybody here, but Christian television, by virtue of the fact that you're seeing Bible teachers, tends towards entertainment. The audio side, radio podcasting version of Bible teaching is discipleship.

Now, if you export that into other countries and you have the experience that I did and seeing how people would clamor for that, they would gather in some countries, third world countries, they would gather around a speaker and listen together in groups to Bible teachings in their own language because they'd never heard it before. It's just a vivid illustration for how powerful God's Word actually is when the Spirit of God

uses that moment to illuminate himself inside a person through his word. And that's happening in the US too. It's just not as obvious. And so I think a lot what happened, even when you translated these languages, even when you translated these messages from a Texas preacher with an accent from America and you translated into Hindi, Spanish, Mandarin, all these different countries.

It still worked, not because Chuck was brilliant, it's because God's Word is powerful. I think that really got a hold of my heart. This is something different that I'm a part of and it's really exciting to commit my life to it.

Todd Turner (27:16)
For the people who not in the radio industry, I'm making a guess here, it's a fairly educated guess, but I don't think people realize that the radio industry was more than just putting a sermon on the radio, which once again, there was a time where preachers went to a radio station they taught, but they preached in their church. And the new phenomenon was, let's record you in the church. But was it just for the airways? Because what was happening is people were like you were producing cassette tapes.

And people were listening to him over and over and sharing it. So cassette tapes were going around the world and radio ministries had a big play into that. And it wasn't radio. It was just taking media and delivering it everywhere. Do you have any stories? I right about that? Cassette tapes were sort of the thing at the time.

Roger (28:05)
yeah, and a

lot of people still have them as collector's items, you know, that's for sure. Imagine what that would be like when you're isolated in a third world country and you have no access to anything and somebody gives you this thing that you could play. It's like a friend. you know, radio and audio, I'm wearing an earbud right now.

and our listeners in radio often do. In podcasting, they certainly do. It's an intimate experience. Going to church, we do in groups. Going to movies, we do in a group. We watch television as a family at home together on the sofa. Radio and the audio experience, especially podcasting, is a one-off. It's one person at a time. It's a very intimate thing. People go into it.

a space and once the earbuds go in, it's me and you. They drop their guard spiritually thinking. They're not aware of people around judging them about what they are or are not listening to. It might happen in a car as a companion. All of the things drop and people have this experience where they're willing to hear something different.

It's not true that Christian radio is consumed by only Christians. It may feel like it, but the statistics prove that there are a lot of people who are willing to test and listen. They would never shadow the door of a church, but they're alone in their car and they come across a Christian radio station and hear this winsome guy talking about life. So anyway, their ears and

Eyes and hearts are open to hear the gospel and a lot of people describe their spiritual pilgrimage as starting right there at that moment.

Todd Turner (30:06)
There's so many great stories of people who were in a predicament and they turned on the radio looking for anything and it was they heard the right thing at the right times. There's so many stories of God using the like you said the teaching and getting his word out because it is powerful. There's a story if you don't know it pretend I'm telling you first time I may be stealing it from you but I think it was Chuck Swindoll. It might have been Carlos his Spanish pastor at the time but they were down in South America.

and they were getting in a cab and their voice was on the radio. The guy was listening and he started Chuck. thought it may have been Chuck started talking to the backseat. The guy told him hush. He's like hush. I'm listening to this important guy. And Chuck let him have it like, okay, if that's what you want to do, but I can talk to you right now live if you want, but it was that intimate to your point that is that a real story? I remember hearing that before.

Roger (31:02)
It is, and I can tell you I've had a similar experience when I'm in Uber cars. I travel a lot and I'm always intrigued to see how Uber drivers who have the most boring job in the world, God bless them for taking care of us. But they're often alone a lot. They're on the dashboard punching through stations or Spotify or something, but I often find them listening to something and it's a

Open door for me to say hey, I've got a couple of shows on that radio station. What? That's been fun

Todd Turner (31:37)
night.

And then the okay, so you're an insight for living, you have an international hat on your mind is growing your passions growing deep. You know, Chuck, he's your pastor and your boss, I guess, right? What how you said eight years, what what was changed that ambition bug still in your brain? Why? What happened there?

Roger (32:00)
Well, I got recruited. Back in 1998, the summer of 1998, Salem Communications in Camarillo, California, the largest network of Christian Bible teaching programs in the country, sought me out to be the National Program Director.

Again, I saw that as an opportunity. I remember the morning that I sat down with Chuck to tell him what I was doing. We were doing an event in Grand Rapids, Michigan. I asked him to have breakfast and asked him for his blessing on something that I wanted to do. And Chuck, you know, he's the kind of guy that, you know, once you tell him that God has called you to something different, he would say so quickly, well, who am I to stand in the way of what God's told you to do?

Careful how I played that because I care so much about my relationship with him. this is another step for me to be the channel captain for about 50 large AM and FM stations who are carrying Bible teaching programs in the US. Decided to do that. A year after that happened, they went public, which was not exactly my passion to take anything public because I'm

Finance has never been a real big deal to me. nonetheless, it was a hair on fire experience, a corporate experience. really, that season of about six years was just very intense of learning how to do the craft that I was doing in a commercial environment. And built a lot of relationships then and had a lot of responsibility, got to do a lot of cool stuff. I continued to work with

Todd Turner (33:45)
Mm-hmm.

Roger (33:54)
all the major Christian ministries who are using Salem Communications to air their programs. Kind of switched sides of the table, Todd, if you will. Was on the other side for a while. And then I, just a fast track, after about six years of that, I went to the owner, Ed Atzinger is his name, another wonderful man. And as you know, Todd, these three men, I've...

I've named in this conversation have all had a huge influence on my life, including Ed Atzinger. I asked for his blessing to start an agency who would then become a customer of Salem. I wanted to come alongside. My passion was to come alongside nonprofit ministries and help them figure out how to effectively do this thing of creating and finding people to listen to their programs.

which I've been doing now for 22 years in this role. So it's hard to imagine because during that time I met you, we hit it off right away. I forget the year, but it had to be in the early 2000s, I think.

Todd Turner (35:04)
2006 I think it was it's yeah, it's so it's so interesting because yeah, you've been a mentor and I and I've sort of followed I called you when I needed to call Chuck and tell him I was leaving and he told me the same sentence He says we've learned in our life if somebody is confident God's told them to do something He's like who am I? I'm not even gonna sit here and argue with you I know you prayed about it if you have peace and so yeah, he's like that

What was Ed good like that as well? I mean, obviously when a man of your caliber leaves, people are disappointed. But was he encouraging to you? he tell you go get him, let me know how he felt?

Roger (35:42)
Well, you know, when

I met with Ed, it was a difficult conversation because I did well there and we had a good relationship. I reported directly to him, Ed is a little intense. And so, I had the epiphany that the way I wanted to start the conversation with him was Ed, when I...

Todd Turner (35:57)
Yeah. Yes.

Roger (36:09)
I'm done having this conversation with you and I walk out that door pointed behind me. What I want from you is your blessing. I want to tell you something I want to do and I would I really want to do this with your favor. Not any other way. And he, you know, I think that helped him, you know, know what I was going to put him through. And so.

He gave me that and we continue to be good friends. He's deep in his 80s now. Wonderful guy. I learned a lot from him though. I learned to spar in the arena of good ideas with men and women who are willing to duke it out with ideas. Not personally, but it was pretty intense. I developed thick skin during that time.

I've told them since that I don't think there would be an RK Media, which is the name of our agency. Not real clever name, but initials of my name. But yeah, yeah, I never came up with anything better, but I told them that I don't think there would be an organization like that if it weren't for him and actually for all three men that I've named. Because they all taught me something that I carried into my next.

Todd Turner (37:10)
for a ride or you didn't go up far.

Roger (37:29)
Frontier that that I have valued and he taught me You know how to do business at a very high level and to do it with integrity and and with courage He built a huge huge network of radio stations at a lot of risk and He did it. Well

Todd Turner (37:49)
Would you and I don't want to put you on the spot. Don't if it's not here, you don't have to make it up. But with Chuck and being a pastor, I mean, there's one thing about running a ministry and there's still a pastor's heart. Like did you learn they from inside living that still trickled down other ministries now?

Roger (38:03)
man. Well, first of all,

I would want to tell people like you would that Chuck is one of the most hilarious guys in the world and he's so fun to be around. so, you know, on a personal side, know, just to loosen up a little, don't take yourself so seriously, Roger. Be yourself. Don't try to impress anyone.

There's all that and just the fun of being around him. But I think also doing things with excellence. He's a writer, too. I learned a lot about communications from him. But, my relationship with him, I would describe as a little bit complicated because he started out as my pastor. I mean, he officiated my grandfather's funeral, the earliest memory I have of him in 1973, and married my brother and

his wife and my sister and her husband. And my sister babysat the Swindoll children. So we go way back that way, but also a pastor, he's a really good friend, shepherded me through a lot of difficult times in my life. I would also say, it's important, I was thinking about what I might say about Chuck and Ed and Al, they all had flaws, like me.

And I bring that up because we, you know, Al's gone now. And when we talk of those who are gone, we tend to, as Chuck would say, you know, we tend to deify the deceased sometimes, you know, make them more than, you know, perfect. Al was flawed, you know, he's got his greatest gift to me during that season of my life. Just a wonderful guy. I only say that because I want people listening to this podcast, not to just

be listening to two guys reminisce about their careers and stuff. I fear that being boring. Maybe see a thread of your own stories you're listening to today and even some hopefulness and maybe what God's calling you to do. to know that greatness comes with all three of these men, great men, through our flaws.

and through our weaknesses and not scandal. not talking about scandal, talking about humanity.

Todd Turner (40:30)
I

feel that way, especially with Insight for Living. You walk away, you say, I'm going to take all the great things and I'm going take things that aren't great. I'm going to walk away and I'll know what to do and what not to do. Right? They're both there. With you as a writer, I'm going say it, Chuck is a world-class orator. I still say if he wasn't a pastor, he would have been a Mark Twain or he would have, he could read the phone book and you would listen.

He just has that thing. And he's one of the rare people, I believe, that can write like he speaks. Some people write like they write, and they speak like they speak. you can read him and hear him speak in his word. So I guess my question to you is, as a writer, by you elbowing, going elbow to elbow with all these greats, and he's just one of them, but he is a world-class writer like that.

Roger (41:00)
Yeah.

Exactly.

Todd Turner (41:29)
Do you learn from it? Are you too busy doing your job? Or do you get to say, wow, I like it. I appreciate what they do. mean, I'm assuming you've stole a lot of your crap by watching really great men do theirs.

Roger (41:41)
Absolutely learned from them. Absolutely have. You can't be around it that much and consume it that much without it impacting you. Writing is a gift. Yes, it's learned, it's refined. But I do think that God instills it in some and not in others. It's a little weird to wake up in the morning and not be able to wait till you can do some writing. I that's a little weird. You do that in isolation.

And so it's a craft like many other crafts. But so I do think that something's instilled, but it can be refined for sure. And you can't, you know, I've basically been doing it every day, writing every day for the last 40 years. You ought to be able to get fairly good at it. But, you know, at the end of the day, you got to have something to say.

And so, you know, that's the other thing. So a lot of my writing is sometimes, you know, written for somebody else. It's written for an announcer or it's, you know, written for somebody else to say. So you're sort of channeling prepping material. Make no mistake. Chuck says what he wants to say. He can do his own writing and speaking, but in radio, words are all we have. So there's a lot of writing that prep material that goes into getting people ready.

Todd Turner (43:05)
I asked you this question when I was at your house, I guess it was last year, but you've written for so many people for so long. And I think I asked you, what is your voice? Do you have your voice? Do you do your own writing on the side? And so give everybody else the answers you gave me. Because I remember thinking with all that skill coming out of you, I can't imagine you don't, you don't have a, amazing diary or thoughts or devotions or whatever it is or children's books.

in the closet or whatever. you know, what do you what do do with that? That who's Roger and where's his brain go when he's not on?

Roger (43:41)
Well, I do

have decades of journals, leather bound journals. Early on, it's another craft that Chuck has engaged in all his life. Remember, he used to give out blank journals. Remember that? And I've got a couple of those blank journals that I've filled already. And in my study, I've got a row of journals that nobody's ever going to want to read.

But it is, my voice is hidden somewhere in there. I do believe I have my own voice. As you know, my wife, Lori, two years ago was diagnosed with pancreatic cancer, stage four now. She's doing well. But during that time, part of my therapy was writing about that experience and telling her story to our friends and colleagues.

That's one manifestation of my voice. God used that during the two years to sort of help me understand how to experience, excuse me, how to express pain and suffering.

She was suffering physically, I was suffering emotionally. We still have a journey to go. And writing is often a way that we can express our thoughts to God and to others. That's a happy place for me because there's God does something when you put ink on a page and allows you to think through and try to articulate what he's saying to you and what he might be using you to say to other people.

Todd Turner (45:25)
I use this all the time. I attribute it to Chuck because I think I saw it in his office. But thoughts disentangle themselves over the lips and through the fingertips. And writing is just such a great way to take these jumbled thoughts. And I think even better than speaking, speaking to get it out there, but writing, have to think about it and back up and erase and, you know, turn it more into poetry. to think of every word. And such a great skill. I wish we all had it. To your point, I think

There are great writers in them and they can grow their craft, but even a poor writer still needs to be a writer. Like, you know, we're all theologians. We're either good ones or bad ones. I think we're all writers. We need to write.

Roger (46:07)
One, this is not my quote to claim. It's not original with me and it's very probably common, but I love this statement. Good writing starts with good listening. In fact, some say that writing is listening. And I love that because we don't do enough listening.

We like to you can tell I like to talk a lot of that's all I've been doing for the last hour. I a good writer is very astute at picking things up and being so by listening. And the words can be crafted and put to page later. But if you're looking for the details and you're noticing things and people and you're asking questions and stopping to listen. That's where all good writing begins. And.

I, you know, I, maybe there's a way to wrap this up a little. don't know where else you want to go with this, Todd, but I, I hope what viewers and listeners are hearing through this conversation of, of us, Yakin. I really do hope that there's some thread in this that, that could be picked out and owned. I hope that there's something in the story that you can claim as your own. And if you're, you're hoping to see God's hand in your life that you'll trust him.

to see his hand. I think in my early days through my ambition and fear, was just, man, I was just trying to make a living. We have four kids, mortgage and a dog, know, car payments. You're just trying to make a living. nobody's getting rich in Christian radio. And that was never really my motive. But you do have a lot of conversations with God about how are you going to provide living paycheck to paycheck to paycheck.

and learning not to focus on that, but learning on being used and trusting Him to guide you in your... And you and I have had countless hours about this, Todd, as we both try to find our way in these journeys that both of us have been on and the circuitous route they sometimes take. But you look back, and as I know you have, and you can see God's hand on your life, it's good to memorialize those things. Thank Him for it.

and to trust Him for it and to remember that all of this is temporary with Lori Bean going through her fight. I will say, you know, she's in a good space right now, but we have no guarantees. We're living in the life in between. And so there's all sorts of uncertainty over our futures. But now we've got all this decades of reason to trust in God's faithfulness. That's not a cliche. My hardest moments over the last two years.

I can say the best part was just feeling that. But God said, I will be with you. He wasn't kidding. There's something that happened in his presence that really came alongside. I think that a lot of that came with time and experience. And I would hope for anybody listening, whatever you're going through, my journey certainly has been filled with uncertainty and fear and wondering and

feeling alienated and maybe overlooked. But I look back and I often pick up a journal and go read it and it reminds me he was there during that period. Didn't feel like it, but he was there and I didn't know the story then.

Todd Turner (49:47)
This is so good. have two more. A smart guy would hit in right here, but I'm not on radio. I get to go a little bit further. So I'm going to ask you two things that I think are important. And one time's in right here. You've been faithful. And I'm sure there's got to be plenty of times you've wanted to quit, right? Like Chuck's talked about times where he's ready to walk out, quit being a pastor. I guarantee you've done it. How do you manage that?

Roger (50:06)
yeah.

Todd Turner (50:17)
You have a for-profit business. You're a businessman and you have a ministry heart and you work for ministries. That's gotta get complicated sometimes. how do you, do you have a daily reset? Is there just certain seasons where it's hard to walk that line? Do you compartmentalize well? Like how do you stay on mission when you're still the one's writing checks, doing the light bills, paying employees and you're a businessman too. Can you talk a little bit about that journey and-

Are you better at it now than you used to be? Or, you know, talk about that a little bit.

Roger (50:52)
Wow, that could send me down a rabbit trail, but I promise I won't. The first thought that to mind is I have good brothers. I'm speaking about brothers in Christ like you that helped me reset from time to time. I've also learned that a lot of times what feels really dark and ominous on a Friday afternoon when you get an email from somebody who's got a problem you need to solve and it ruins your weekend because you can't stop thinking about it over the weekend.

Todd Turner (50:52)
Thank you.

Roger (51:20)
It's a bad time to make any decisions. Get a good night's sleep, go for a walk, spend some time getting some distance, praying, reflecting. Don't make any decisions. But, you know, I do have a band of brothers that I go to that can be a sounding board to reset and make sure that I don't lose balance. Obviously my wife and I...

Talk a lot about this, but I've also learned that it's not fair to her to dump a lot of emotion and turning on her that Shouldn't be on her shoulders Any more than she would do that to me. So so I've got some good friends that helped me with that But I you say how do you deal with it? Not not very well all the time Todd

Todd Turner (52:13)
Oh, well, that's

that's why I'm asking because I just got to creep in with you know, there's gonna be frustration the life of ministry for people who listen you aren't in ministry. Yeah, you know people think oh you work for a church. It's great. No, it's horrible. It's it's it's horrible. It's not a Disney movie with little birds chirping and landing on your shoulders while you're walking down the hallway like it's full of people full of messes and because theology and ministry is mixed in it makes it even weirder suit.

you will.

Roger (52:44)
Well, I can say this on behalf of my brothers who are pastors and any woman in that kind of leadership. The church will hurt you.

And that's not a statement against the church. It's a reality. When you're working with sheep, when you're working with people, there will be things that happen where you're disappointed you will get hurt. And by the way, everything that we do at Arcade Media is subservient to the church. This really is this ministry that we do is all about the church. And I hang around pastors a lot.

I love coming alongside pastors to encourage them. I a lot of time doing that. But there's a lot of pain in that. I've had lot of disappointment along the way. I remember one that happened over 10 years ago that was a real gut punch when I lost a relationship with one of the people that I represented. It hurt me deeply. It took me months to get over it.

You know, that proved to be a turning point. Our company began to grow at that moment and never look back. And I saw how God used it, seeing things that I didn't foresee that happened that I had no way of understanding. There was a day when I left it behind, said, Lord, I'm going to drop this. It was a couple of months in because I was churning and working it over in my mind. This is so wrong. This is so wrong. God, what?

What are you doing in this? It turns out I was spared a lot more pain because I was set free from that relationship earlier than it actually imploded and I had no idea it would. But God spared me of that. He knew the story. didn't. Things like that happen that part of the thread that I've been talking about, the tapestry that's been woven in my life.

Todd Turner (54:47)
Yeah, I it's really interesting as I get older I I see the joy and things that used to frustrate me and that's wrestling constant wrestling and I realized that God does that with our lives He lets us wrestle. He wants us to wrestle because if you give an easy answer, that's not you're over it when you're constantly have to wrestle and balance life Balance your ministry with your work. That's good. That helped that help me. It's really

balancing on a wire, you're constantly doing this and that's what keeps you balanced is the struggle. If it was easy, it wouldn't be a big deal walking across the wire. And so that's what I'm hearing in your answer. I'm going to ask for three or four more minutes because I can't get off this call without people knowing your story with Pilgrim Progress and you didn't mention it in there. But I want to hear the quick takeaway that I want to ask you about your collection because I'm fascinated by this. think others would be too.

Roger (55:38)
Yeah.

Well, I earlier described what happened to me in 1966 at wagon train camp at Hume Lake Christian Conference Center in central California. I was part of this camp and they had a theme that week of Pilgrim's Progress, which was very clever, and they played it out, sussed it out through the week. then on Friday night, it all culminated in a call around the fire pit.

And I came to Christ that night. And it was, as I said, a very, very meaningful experience, very genuine, authentic, clear-minded decision. And my brother, who's two years older,

had already made that decision and so it was he reveled in what I did. It was a great moment. But that story stuck with me and throughout my life that theme has continued. And then I got a little older in life. I discovered that you can get copies of Pilgrim's Progress. I believe it's in the public domain, so there's no copyright issues.

And it's easy to go onto eBay and find a hundred year old copy of it, leather bound with big art plates in it. So I started buying them and collecting them, giving them away as gifts. And I've probably got about 20 of them at home. Many of them, 7,500 years old. They're not terribly expensive. It's not, don't be impressed. It's just a thing. I was looking at one this morning before I left the house.

And yeah, that theme has re-occurred to me. And I will tell you that my daughter gave me one of these gifts a couple of years ago. It's called Story Worth.

And it's a unique gift, know, basically it is an invitation for somebody to write their life story in a memoir. And you spend a year answering weekly questions and writing about them. And then at the end of the year, the company publishes it in a hardbound book. So I did that. And, you know, it's a hard gift to receive because that's a lot of work and fortunately came to COVID. So I had some time to do it.

Saturday mornings, I was often pounding away at my laptop writing this basically a memoir that only my family will ever have. It's never going to be published, but one of the chapters that I wrote was quite meaningful for me. I want my family to know and generations of my family to know how it happened at that camp and the threads of that story that have been woven through my life.

Todd Turner (58:32)
How often do you read a program's progress periodically? A lot.

Roger (58:38)
you know, I, I, I'm not going to say it's once a year, but you know, there's several different versions of it, thankfully, because of the original version is kind of tough to read, but there's several contemporary versions. I've got one in my cabinet right now, you know, just pulling this down of, of a particular version of it. There's a children's version. and I recommend it to any family to let your kids enjoy that.

allegory.

Todd Turner (59:09)
Do you, last question, is there a white whale version that you're looking for? is there original copy? there a signed copy? there a version that you go to eBay and, if you ever see it, you're gonna go grab it.

Roger (59:22)
Oh yeah. And I don't know the name of it. I will tell you that I have been to several high end book collection stores. There's one in Palm Beach, Florida that's just unbelievable leather bound. You know, but these books are 15,000, $25,000. And I feel nervous with a book like that, but

You know, there's something about holding something in your hands. It's been around a long time. You think, wonder how many people have read this and had an experience with this that's pretty beautiful. Not the Bible, but it's close.

Todd Turner (1:00:03)
No, that's all it's talking about. That's right. Roger, thanks for taking the time. And part of the reason I asked you to do this part is because the thing I want people to take away with really all the stories is that God's doing something great in people's lives. He normally prepares them for that ministry. And that's what we were gathering in your story. But I people to know that, you know, there's people who like you behind the scenes that you've done.

such a great job with that, that make things happen. And not everyone would know you exist, right? And after this though, we're like, wow, you you've been really, I would call you a pillar of the meet the Christian media world. You've been doing it for decades and so many ministries rely on you. And I was one of that to encourage people that God can put you somewhere do great things and nobody may ever know who you are, but you just be faithful to it. You've done a great job with that, Roger.

Roger (1:01:00)
Thank you.

And I certainly hope that those who have been listening to us, again, hear God's voice and find their story that He's writing into their lives to do something for Him. And it doesn't mean you have to be behind a microphone or have the limelight. We all have something to do, thank goodness, and there's a lot of fulfillment in doing what God wants us to do.

Todd Turner (1:01:02)
Thank

All right, brother. Thank you very much for your time.

Roger (1:01:31)
Absolutely. Take care Todd.