Where does the mission money go?

When you write a check for “clean water” or “orphans in Africa,” what actually happens on the other side of the wire?

In this episode, Todd Turner sits down with longtime Africa practitioner Jason Miller to talk honestly about the dark side of global generosity: dependency, staged photo ops, buzzword-driven proposals, broken “sustainability” projects, and a charity mindset that quietly damages the very communities we say we care about.

Jason has been working in East Africa since the mid-90s, from backpacking and hauling fax machines into Tanzania to walking slums, village wells, schools, farms, and “sustainable” projects across the continent. Together, Todd and Jason unpack how Western money interacts with local culture, government corruption, and survival ethics on the ground. They tell real stories of empty chicken houses, stolen wells, abandoned greenhouses, and ministries that exploded with donor money and then collapsed under the weight of it.

Most importantly, they explain why U.S. oversight tools like Guidestar, ECFA, and clean audits are necessary but not enough. Once money leaves the country, the paper trail gets fuzzy and the real story is told in dusty fields, rural schools, and village churches, not on a glossy PDF.

In this conversation, you’ll hear:

• Why “don’t feed the bears” is a painfully accurate picture of some mission models
• How well-intentioned donors can destroy local businesses and jobs without realizing it
• Why buzzwords like “sustainability,” “water is life,” and “women’s empowerment” raise money but often hide shallow work
• How cultural views of truth, honor, and family boards can completely change what “accountability” looks like
• Why schools, wells, fish farms, and orphanages often fail once the team flies home
• The limits of 501(c)(3) audits, Guidestar stars, and ECFA seals when funds are wired overseas
• What real donor due diligence looks like when you actually “watch the money in action”
• How Open Trust Global helps close the gap between donor stories and donor reality

If you’re a pastor, foundation leader, missions pastor, family office, or everyday giver who supports overseas work, this episode will help you ask better questions, fund better projects, and avoid doing unintentional harm with generous gifts.

Open Trust Global exists to put eyes and boots where the dollars go so that every gift has a fighting chance to become the good it was intended to be.

Transcript

Every Sunday, churches, foundations, families across America collect millions for mission, clean water, orphan care, evangelism, disaster relief. But what happens when the money leaves the country? Somewhere between the donor's check and the village well, the oversight disappears. Receipts are forged, funds get redirected, and everybody keeps smiling for the newsletter. Today, we're talking about the uncomfortable truth. The money meant for ministry often feeds a broken system, and we, the givers, are part of the problem. I'm Todd Turner, and with me today is Jason Miller. Together, we've seen the best and the worst of global generosity. from the boardrooms of US foundations to the villages of Africa. Today we're unpacking why good intentions are not enough and how to fix it. Well, first, thank you, Todd. It's great to have you at my house and looking forward to visiting with you about this. It's a very important topic that is overlooked. So, I've been working uh off and on since 1996 in East Africa. Um my first uh opportunity to work there was when I was backpacking across Kenya Tanzania and I started working with the uh Catholic DOC's in Moshi Tanzania and uh little did I know at the time but my job for them was uh importing fax machines and computers from Texas here in Texas to uh Tanzania to help them.

Okay. And so when did you know there's a problem? Because I'm assuming the first time anybody travels abroad and goes on whether it's a mission trip or even just a whether it be a safari or or you know whatever the reason you're there you there's clearly opportunities to help. And so where where along the way did you realize wait a minute this system feels broken? You know what? I I I must admit that I was quite naive in the beginning. And uh you know, I think uh Americans especially and and foreign travelers going to these places, they want to help. And when someone comes to you and says, "Hey, uh would you be willing to help us do this or do that? We're willing to do so." So, uh, I, you know, um, I would say it was many years until I realized that I was kind of feeding a perpetual need that was not going away.

Sometimes it takes years or decades, you finally realize, am I throwing money in a pit? Right? And what causes the pit? So, let's talk about that. I think somebody interested in this topic probably already knows there's a problem or they wouldn't even be listening. But and I I hate using this analogy, but I feel like it fits. Don't feed the bears. That idea like why why not feed bears? Because when you feed them, they don't have to hunt for themselves because they know the tourists are coming. And isn't it almost the same problem with certain cultures and countries? Most definitely. And I think we're to blame uh that Western society is to blame uh mainly because you know starting a young age uh and I'm going to speak about East Africa for example because I do a lot of work there children uh from a very young age are ingrained with when the westerner comes there's going to be some sort of a free gift or a handout and it starts with the uh the the good-hearted ladies and and young people that will bring it bag of candy, for example. Pull up into a village. I see this often, throwing candy out on the ground, kids running and get it in the, you know, scrambling in the dirt to get this candy. And what's that? That is teaching these kids that when they see a western or white face or or someone from a a more developed country than they are, there's going to be free stuff. And sadly that continues on as as they grow older all the way up to the government and and top officials in these countries who instead of solving for example a water crisis, it's easier for them to just sit back and let the NOS's do it. Yeah. So it's not just churches, tourists, it's even up to the government level. We throw I'm going to use the word the royal we the west throws hundreds and hundreds of millions of dollars into most all the countries over at least Africa at least right? Yes. Yeah. Many of them uh we do and uh you would be surprised how over time I call it charity mindset sits in and um it's easier to ask for money than to to work for money. Bottom line. Yeah. And and until there's a until it's cut off, you have no incentive, right? And it's it's it's a horrible I hate this phraseology, but it's just true. Like if and I'm I'm going to pick on pastors for a minute there. If they find a church to sponsor them, it's like winning the lottery. Oh, it is. It's winning the lottery. It's winning the lottery. They know they're set, which means they go to extra lengths to convince and keep the money flowing, of course, which leads to even good people doing what we would call questionable things to keep the money flowing. Oh yes. uh the you know I I speak with many churches and and pastors who tell me well we are partners with a you know I'll use an example with a pastor in Uganda and uh every month there's a need every month and new laptop new phone new and it will continue indefinitely and uh you know it's like you said it's hitting the lottery for them and and once they get in good with some sort of contact in the Uh sadly, instead of attempting or trying to uh wean themselves off of that foreign aid, they'll they'll figure out reasons to continue.

So, let let me ask you this question. So, let's say I we're not here to say everybody's full in the system, right? That that's it's not true. Everybody is. But it is true that when you get your lifestyle set, it's hard to walk away from the money. So let's say whatever your thing is, and I'd love you to get some real world examples here, but I have this soup kitchen or I'm helping kids off the street or I'm whatever it is, they know they have to do more of that to get money. But the reality is is once the the mission team goes home, are they as motivated to actually do the work that they say they do? Well, it's hard to say. uh simply because I'm not there all the time. I I I spend a lot of time in Africa uh and South America and I spend a lot of time visiting different uh nonprofits, Christian and otherwise. And uh of course, you know, most of the time when when I arrive or a team arrives, it's staged, you know, for us. And you know, of course it is. They're going to have everything set up to show us the very best face. Not necessarily being deceitful, but uh sometimes put your best foot forward. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. And sometimes that means character actors, right? Because they'll bring in their friends, they'll bring in their sisters or whatever, even kids. Mhm. To show look at all we're doing. And that's not what it's like 52 weeks out of the year. Correct. And when what I call it is when they wear if you have anybody coming over and they're all wearing the same t-shirts like you're coming over in the group, that's when they turn it up to 11. But with you and I go, we don't see the same activities going on right as the donor sees. One time uh I was doing a a analysis on a nonprofit in Uganda and it was in a very rural part of Uganda and it was a uh I I believe it's a Colorado uh based nonprofit and very small and it's farming and uh so we were going to go and do analysis on this because a gentleman I knew was going to be donating a large sum of money to this organization. So, we show up and the uh the the people leading us around the the giving us the show um were stalling and we kept sitting on the side of the road as we were on the way to their their farm. Okay. And uh finally we're like, "Okay, we're on a very tight schedule. We need to get over there and and see what we're going to see." Well, what it was is they were rounding up people and their hose and their equipment to to be there on site working that farm for the photo op. For the photo op. Yeah. So, when we arrived, uh, we asked, "So, where are your uh, you know, your your water treatment area or water storage?" Oh, it's over here. No water in it. Okay. Well, where's your crops? Oh, well, you know, all of a sudden, we start getting the line of why, you know, uh, if we had more money, we'd fix it. Yeah. Right. Yeah. But but what's interesting is I see many people go over that are supporting me and they'll just believe whatever they're told. Oh, well, you know, it's a drought right now. So, well, that guy's a good guy. He's a pastor. He's telling me this happened. I believe him. Yeah. And it's not necessarily that they're lying. I I want to interject this here, and I'd love you know more about this than I do, but in different cultures throughout time have different things that are the most important. And like to Romans it was law. Truth truth doesn't matter. I mean it law matters, right? Well, in certain countries, especially third world, survival matters. It's the trump card. And when you have money, you're allowed to tell a white lie. And they don't even see it as a problem because it's like, well, I have to do what I have to do to survive, right? So, I'm I can tell a white lie. That That's no harm, no foul. Well, and and also uh mainly in East Africa, uh some of the tribal uh you know, just historically uh these people tell you exactly what you want to hear and and they don't believe that it's a lie. For example, you ask somebody, you know, so so you know, what's going on with this project? Oh, this project is going great. You know, there's nothing to worry about. We'll be done on time. And you know, and there's no reality to that whatsoever. But but they don't believe it's a lie because they're telling you what you want to hear. What you're wanting to hear and and I which is respectful. Yeah. It's a respect. Yeah. I I've spent hours thousands of hours talking with people who are saying, "Listen, just tell me the truth. Even if it's bad news, because it's easier for me to explain to somebody, hey, we we hit a snag here and this is the the true problem." Yeah. instead of telling me that everything is going fine until I show up and find out nothing is going fine. Right. And uh which they would tell you tomorrow it'll be fine. Yeah. You know, and to me it's it's it's fun. It's neat. It it's exciting uh working and trying to understand different culture and uh you know different business practices and the way uh other people do things. I I relish that. But it doesn't mesh well with the western way of doing things and and it creates it creates problems.

It's really interesting. There's there's so many levels and layers of this conversation. I would say maybe maybe you know when this happened, but there's a point when even naive donors finally say, "Huh, I'm tired of throwing money in. Maybe I'll give to sustainability, meaning if I'll help them where they don't have to ask me for more. Well, somewhere along the way, I know for sure in Africa, it sustainability became the buzzword because they realize, oh, they want us to be sustainable. And so, we've spent more money on the sustainable stuff that's not sustainable. Sustainable. And and you know, it's funny. Uh buzzwords are the big thing over there. and and and really all over the world. So, for example, you know, I I'll walk in and and meet with an NGO that says does water type projects and within 10 minutes of talking to him, water is life, quote unquote, is stated. And I chuckle because water is life is probably one of the most commonly used buzzwords. Sustainability uh is another one. Um or women's empowerment is another one over there. And uh you know, here's the thing. All three of those things are good things. Sustainability is good, water is good, and women empowerment is good. But but when it's used as a buzzword, and with nothing backing it, they know that somebody will give a dollar to that. Oh yes. And once they know Yeah. So let let's tell some stories. Like I know of cases of of hey, we need $100,000, $200,000, whatever the number is. we need to build up right solar power whatever the well and then you come back and it's like well it's not built right it's like well sometimes it is built but it's empty and you're like well what happened well now we well this ripped right we need to repair it right and then it's always this it's just it never and I'm going to use the word I don't like never but rarely pays for itself yeah that we they could have just used the money and we have all these broken wells. Mhm. Empty farm houses, empty empty dreams, empty hospitals, and because we all thought we're doing good and it's not doing good. Like there's so many broken um ministries, there's broken nonprofits that we just keep pouring money and it's doing more harm than good.

Goes back to that charity mindset way of thinking. If there if if there's no owners, just like a child here, if I buy my my child a car at 16 years old, a brand new car, they don't have a vested ownership or interest in in maintaining that car. Yeah. Same thing over there. There are are wells drilled all over Africa. I mean, the well drilling nonprofits are are are very very wellunded and and they're all over the place. Mhm. Uh the problem therein lies with uh either not doing research in the beginning and and and you know cultural research which we'll touch on in a bit or drilling the well, taking the pictures, everybody's happy, walking away. Yeah. And and then the the pump breaks and since there was no vested ownership in the beginning, hey, we need another NGO to come fix this pump or we're just going back to hauling water from the river or until the next guy comes and digs another one right beside it. Yes. because they want to spend their money and do their good and no one owns the old well. Right. Right. And that's very common. Very common. I have seen some some wells drilled down in Malawi uh in the country of Malawi that I think is pretty neat. They use a a uh a mechanical hand pumping apparatus as opposed to solar and and electric. And they're very robust and they seem to last indefinitely and and you got to put some work into it into it. Yeah. I've also gone into and seen the solar panel array set up and the inverter and the pump and and I've gone back one year later, half of it stolen. The the solar panels are off, you know, powering a a nightclub over here on this side of town. The the pump is being used for parts for something else. and all the time. All the time. And you know, another interesting story that that falls in line with the drilling of wells is uh one time down in the Massai land in southern Kenya, south uh western Kenya, uh organization who will remain nameless went in uh and they were doing surveys and they were finding out the best place to drill wells, which is exactly what we would do here in this country. So they said, "Hey, this spot right here, the water table is at X depth. this is where we should drill. Everyone's like, "Okay." They drill the well. They didn't even realize they drilled that on someone's private land, of course, and then that person starts charging all the local people to use the well. So, they, you know, created an economy. Yeah. Our way of thinking would be that well would be for the whole community, but it instantly created a business opportunity for the land owner and nobody benefited uh from the well. Everybody takes a picture and goes home. Yeah. And you know, there's thousands of those stories. I don't remember if you told me this story. I read it in a book or whatever, but I'm gonna throw it out here. Something it was about a and I'm gonna I'm gonna get it wrong on purpose. That way I'm not plagiarizing. But let's just say it was a church that said, "Okay, because you get a new mission pastor and he's going to bend the church to his experience, right?" So they're like, "Oh, well, we want to remove the funding or where it was." Well, that's a problem. when you pour into somewhere and pour it away, that creates a whole mess void there. And then they moved over and they wanted to help with eggs. So, they went into community and they built an egg, like if they invested into an egg processing plant or something, they're going to give away eggs. Give away, right? Well, there was an egg farmer there who was making a living. They put him out of business, right? They're giving away eggs. Well, then one day they got a new mission pastor. He stops that. Mhm. They move on to another dig well somewhere else. And now that community has no eggs because they killed the guy who was making a living thinking they were doing good, right? And you're not doing good. No, you're not doing good. You're you're doing more damage than good. And and a perfect example of that I saw also I believe in Malawi was uh some ladies at at a church in Malawi, local ladies uh um got in involved with an American NGO somehow and said hey you know uh we want to start a business or something. So the American NGO uh put their brains or or their minds together and said hey let's send them over an embroidery machine. those machines that that that embroider hats and stuff. So these ladies and they and they can make for the school the uniforms for the school. Okay. So they send uh this equipment over, set these ladies up in the business and they do all their school uniforms. Well, guess what? They've got equipment now. So they start doing all the uniforms for all the schools in the area and put probably 50 ladies that sewed, you know, these uniforms out of business. Yeah. All because of their connections. They're helping one a couple people and murdering the economy everywhere else. And and I we can touch on the the and God bless this organization up in the Northwest that gives you've heard them. I won't say their name, but for every pair of shoes you buy, they give two to you know, those type things are neat, but but they're not taking into consideration the impact they have on the local economy. Yeah. And and if I bring in a shipping container full of shoes into an area, if it isn't stolen from me and sold by some government official or or something like that, if I actually get it into the community and start giving away shoes, I I've just put so many people out of business. Uh in fact, it's immeasurable the the negative impact that had. And all it did is give a person a free pair of shoes, which yes, you can argue is good, but you you and I are not we're not the boss of of of good works. Okay. So, I'm not acting like we have a right a solution, but I will say I'd like your opinion. Like it feels like there are cases where food like when there's drought or where there's a civil war and you're misplaced like yeah man pour into these people but just to say ah y'all can't figure it out. We're going to throw money in. That's so dangerous. Like why why do we need all the soup kitchens? Why do we need all the Well, it's insulting to them as well. You know, for us to sit there and I've learned this the hard way. I'm a fixer and and you know there's kind of a funny thing that I notice a a lot in East Africa and that is in new construction I don't care if they're building a brand new building they will not put a P trap in to save their life in the plumbing. Okay. So every bathroom you go into smells like raw sewage because there's no trap there to you know what I'm talking about. Got to stop the smell coming back up, right? And you know, I can't tell you how many times I've said, "Why don't you guys put it?" And and I have to check myself because, you know, yes, I think that they should do that and I don't see why they don't because it would be a lot better as far as smelling things. But, you know, I need to mind my own business and and and and respect what they're doing. And uh you know I I think bottom line is we need to lift up the communities uh create some you know help create opportunities for there to be job opportunities. Now I'm not saying go and create jobs right because that's also not our place in my opinion but uh the problem is there are no opportunity and and it starts at the top of these these governments you know over there some better than others. You could have a country right next door to one that's flourishing and and one that's not. And it policy and corruption is is the difference of those border lines. 100%. 100%.

So let's let's talk let's back up way up. So let's say we have somebody listening right now and they're don they're a donor and you know there's going to be small donors and big donors that are listening. But let's just for those small, you think, oh well, I'm giving to a 501c3. Our 501c3s in America are sort of audited, right? Some of them are members of ECFA or Guidear. Like what? That's not a solution because why why not? Tell tell me why not. You know what? I I can't tell you how many times I I've had people say, "Well, I've gone star or you know, you got a four-star rating or somebody has a fivestar rating here, so it's good." Well, yeah, it's good. You know, it's audited on this side in the US, of course. You know, we know how many employees there are. We know the salaries of every it's all do what you say, say what you do and they check that, right? But but one of the things that I've that I've learned sadly and I find it sad, you know, uh for lack of better word, is uh once the money leaves this country there there's no process in place. No. And unless the the western or or the American-based part of whatever NGO is doing audits, which hopefully they are, right? But uh but when the money's gone, it's gone. When it's wired away, there there's no right telling what

Well, it goes back to what we were saying at the beginning. The problem is is that sometimes when you go and you're on that mission trip and you meet the the pastor, you see the need, you're like, I'm giving to that. Sometimes it's your own eyeballs, which are deceiving because you're there when they're giving their the best their best foot forward. And then you go home and you're like, well, let me look at the website. People, the website's not a good audit, right? It's a website. It can say whatever it says, right? And that's that doesn't mean because you've seen that and I have too. People were like, "Oh, I give to this place." Well, why? Well, I've done my research. You're like, "Well, I know you haven't because I've I see the fraud. I've seen it." Yeah. And so, there's no way you did it. Well, and and you can get to a point, you know, I've been doing this for a long time. You know, I could look at a website and and just like you said, buzzwords. I mean, first thing I look for is buzzwords. You and I at dinner tonight, we're looking at a website of somebody and we were, you know, rudely picking it to death based on the things they were saying because they know what brings in donations. They do, but they also didn't have on there uh the the backing of those phrases, claims, show me sustainability. Well, right, don't just say the word sustainable. Sustainable. Is anybody checking? And if it's not, do you quit sending money? And and you know what is sustainable? You know, you know, we touched a little bit on damaging local business, but but what is sustainable? For and I'm just gonna I'm going to use a an example that isn't tied to anyone I know, but for example, say someone wanted to start a a fish farm and and uh so they raise money in the nonprofit way of of raising say $500,000 to start this fish farm. And then they go and they open up this fish farm and was that sustainable? And the answer is probably no because it was made with donor money. Yeah. It it how do you compete? How does the fish farm down the street that had to actually build based off of profits slow growth and learn the hard way? Exactly. How how do they compete with now the new fish farm that was brought in with NGO money that may or may not have the skill level to run a fish farm? Yeah. Who's the guy running? He's never run one before. Exactly. And and I see so much of that happening of of goodwilled western thinking, hey, we can set this nonprofit up with their own quote unquote business or opportunity to become sustainable by and not only are they putting the, you know, people in place that really don't know anything about running a fish farm, right? But number two, they're damaging again Yeah. all the local fish farmers there, you know, it's really well. So, we'll we'll go back on that. So, when the email comes from the west saying, "I need a picture for the newsletter." They'll go ask four or five kids go standing on that fish farm with some polls and they'll take their picture. But, but normal days that it's empty. Well, it could be or or it could just be a failure in the sense of not being managed properly or you know a lot of times. Okay, another example down in Namibia, Bushman tribe, Bushman, the Bushman people are are truly the last probably mainly untouched people still living traditional as they have for thousands of years. Really neat culture. They're hunter gatherers um by for thousands of years that's how they've sustained themselves hunting uh small game and gathering berries, nuts, roots, whatever. It's the way they live. Uh an NGO from Europe came in and said, "Ah, we need to create an opportunity for these people. We're going to build them these poor people." These poor people. Yes. We're going to build them a greenhouse so they can grow vegetables for themselves cuz they need that. So yeah, so uh I don't know how much money was raised. Uh oh yeah, actually I do. I I believe it was 60,000 or so or you know it was a European country, so it was probably euros. And they went to Vinduk Namibia, bought a bunch of stuff, built maybe a $5,000 greenhouse, and it was sitting empty when I was there. Why? The Bushmen don't grow crops. They have no interest in it. They have no interest because you told them you should do this. Like, well, our my dad didn't, my granddad didn't, and my kids not gonna. So, so is that impactful? Another really funny example, and I don't know if I showed you a picture, but I showed somebody the other day. The same NGO thought the Bushman in case of an emergency or something needed a car. No way. Yes. So, they buy them this little Toyota car. Okay. And I was there in their village probably two years ago and I'm like, "What's the deal with this car?" It was up, tires gone off of it, wheels, stripped, but brand new sitting there. No deal. Nobody ever turned it on. Yeah. Yeah. They don't know how to drive for one thing. And And they don't need a car. And where were they going to go? Yeah. Really? Into the town, I guess, to to to tell them, right? Let's walk back. So, you know, there's a car and I have pictures of it because it was absolutely hilarious to me. Uh, you know, again, someone some lady or manomeware gave money to a nonprofit thinking they're helping the Bushman people by supplying them with a car. And I'm sure there was a big write up as to why they needed a car or a greenhouse. and no thought or or uh studying their no insight to their culture or what they're about even went into this process. and and here we are

that and there there's a definitely an arrogance of us seeing somebody and saying oh well these poor people and the answer is well this is billions of people are not rich like Americans or Europeans or whatever and then we we just sort of judge like oh well they need our help well that goes back to my argument yeah when there's a civil war yeah when you're when there's a drought There are times that we should give a helping hand, right? But otherwise, people need to find their own economy and and live the way they live. Like, isn't that okay? Well, and let's let's stay on the Bushman people, for example, because they're a perfect uh people group to So, I was there one time with a guy from California and we went into the the Bushman village. They live in mud huts. Uh they're still nude for, you know, I mean, they're they're living way back. Yeah. And this guy went away, you know, what can we do? Look at the way these people are living. And and and I said, "What's wrong with the way they're living?" I mean, they were perfectly content. Yeah. And and and quite healthy, you know. So So what we need to do as nonprofits and founders and donors is we need to simply ask the Bushmen, how could we help? Can we help you? Yeah. What would make you feel? Yeah. And and if they say no, leave them alone. And if they say yes, and and that's what we did, by the way. We I I interviewed actually quite a few of them uh over many years and said, "What what would help you?" Okay, they don't want to be changed culturally. They don't want to jobs, but they want opportunity for their kids. They want schools for their kids and and opportunities for them. I thought that's very interesting because they see the writing on the wall as we do in our culture. Our kids are different than we are. Yeah. And their kids are too. And and little Bushman kids are are going to need an education or need that h that ability to to survive in the future of Namibia, right? That the parents are fine with being content the way they are right now. So, uh, another interesting thing that came up in those visits is, uh, the Bushmen, you know, they're not a, uh, a Bantto or they're their own culture. They're not black Africans. They're they're they're a culture of their own and, um, and the people group of their own going back thousands of years. So, they're even discriminated again in school and their little stature. They're just precious people. So what we're finding is when they go to local public schools, the Bushman kids are pushed out quite quickly by the other kids. Uh uh so there is no opportunity. So bottom line is uh with that particular project was building private schools for Bushmen communities and and it's it's a win. It's it's doing it right in my opinion because we're not trying to impose a western view. We're simply going in, how can we serve you? How can we respect your culture? Not throw in a western perspective. Yeah. But how can we help? How can we serve? Yeah. And and I like that.

So, if you don't mind, I've never asked you I don't think I've ever asked you this question. We We dig a lot of wells. We feed. But what's up with schools? It feels like everybody's building a school, sending people to school, private school, public school. Yeah. School. School. Schools. Are they Are they Are they like Wells? Are there empty schools because we built another one two blocks away? You know, I think, you know, this is a western thing. It's a societal thing and it's definitely something I hear as I travel around the world. and and and just my humble opinion and people are going to go nuts over this but I think it's false and that is education is the key. Education, education, education. I hate to break it to you but in my opinion education is not the key. Opportunity is the key. Oh okay. I can't tell you how many young people introduce themselves to me and have and this is in Kenya for example with I have a bachelor's degree in international commerce. They'll tell me, "Well, what is that?" Yeah. One second. Oh, yeah. You You can't even get a a visa to leave the country and you're in international commerce, you know, or a bachelor's degree. And then so many people have degrees and they really value those degrees because they've been told for 40 years education, education is key. So, you know, there needs to be opportunity and and we're seeing that uh in Kenya and Rwanda especially. Uh some of those Eastern African countries are very they're they're not third world countries anymore. They're developing nations and and we're seeing investment from Microsoft and and uh you know, Google and and stuff like that. So, so the opportunity is starting to come, but man, it's kind of sad to put such an emphasis and yes, education is important. Sure. Yeah. Right. But it's not the golden ticket. Yes. And it is believed over there that it is a golden ticket. Well, we we've beat it in their heads. Yeah. That it is. Yeah. Yeah. It's really interesting. Like last time I went to Nairobi, I was just looking around. It felt like Hong Kong. There was a crane on top of every building. A lot of It's just growth. Like it's unbelievable. Yes. And you know, I guess like, you know, America is a big place, but you have poverty and then you have pen houses. And it's the same as there. Yeah. Like sometimes we just we there are some people who just don't know and they think all of Africa is is mud huts. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Not true. No, definitely not. There's uh I I used Rwanda as an example. Goodness gracious, what an amazing country. Yeah. You you could walk across the whole country and not see a piece of trash on the ground. Yeah. And and be safe doing it. Yeah. It's just it's a beautiful place. Yeah. It's it's so it's so interesting. I'm um I guess I want to I want to move to what's the solution because you back to don't feed the bears. Well, if you stop feeding them, they're they haven't hunted in so long. How what's the how do you give accountability? How do you Well, I'm gonna I'm gonna back before I ask that question, I'm going to back up to something you told me the other day. Sometimes, you know, you travel more than I do, but even in my travels, sometimes you meet somebody and you're like, "That's a good soul doing good stuff." But if you go and don't raise money or donate to somebody, you can ruin their ministry by giving them too much money. And so, how do you judge not only where you put money, but how much you put in? And then how do you grade how's it going? You know, how often do you check in with somebody to say, "How's the ministry going? How do you need help? Why would I give you another $100,000?" Right? Well, what what I see happening a lot is uh ministries or nonprofits grow and they get to a point where they're so large and it's kind of feeding this big machine and um like for example in Kenya there's probably four or five very large very very large probably 50 million plus uh privately ran ministries canonbased um that that are just huge. And and so you know, you you toss $100,000 to an organization like that and you know, are they making an impact? Yes, they are. But but $100,000 impact probably not. Yeah. Yeah. Right. And and then I think a a a husband and wife team in in western Uganda and uh uh and what they do is they rescue girls from underage marriage and uh give them opportunities and these people run on about $20,000 US a year, right? And so, so my question would be or or my thought would be would $100,000 uh go better, you know, to a a huge organization in in wherever or to that husband and wife team that uh now now of course they need to be held accountable and and because you give them 100,000, they're used to 20. That's a new problem. That's a new problem, right? And uh there's a uh I met a gentleman about two years ago that a very wealthy guy and he and his friends uh told me we give 100 million US dollars a year away to nonprofits. This guy is a philanthropist. A philanthropist. Yeah. Yeah. And the first thing out of my mouth to him when he said that probably wasn't what he was expecting. It was, "Do you have any idea how much damage you're doing giving a hundred million US dollars a year away?" You know, well, what do you mean? Yeah. Well, you know, you can money can destroy a lot of things, you know, and and and create opportunities and make honest people dishonest, right? I mean, it does here in our country, too. would to me, you know, if someone's just start writing me checks left and right, I I would struggle to uh maintain focus. That's right. You know, and once again, if you checked on me once a year and said, "What what do you do with that money?" I'll make the best newsletter you've ever seen in your life. Cuz I got time to do it. I got you'll think you spent that money wisely. Right. Right. And and you know what you're talking about there is why I think there is a need for an organization or or or someone to do to go invest these projects. Someone to go and and and understand the complexities from very deep from language, culture, understanding the need like we talked about with the Bushman, you know, uh is there a need? If a pastor comes to me in in, you know, northern or south Sudan and says, "I want to start fish farming." Uh, you live in the desert, you know. Yeah. Yeah. Why are we doing this? You know, well, is he doing that? Because he heard that's a good thing to ask. It worked. Yeah. Or or, you know, we need to find solutions and work together with NOS's I think before giving money, right? uh to say, you know, to align these affinities with with whoever the donor is. For example, you had touched a little bit earlier on on food aid or medical aid. Hey, there are situations that I am all for hund00 million going for, you know, AIDS medicine or or famine. South Sudan, we were talking about Sudan. There's horrible stuff going on there right now in Sudan. Hund thousands of people being killed. Yes. the pump money in there and and and let's make sure these mothers have a shelter over their head for their children and food, you know, temporary, you know, uh rescue type situations. But when it comes to giving money to organizations out there that are trying to make a change in the in the culture, what does a change mean? Yeah. What does a change? and and we we need to uh dig deep and and come up with solutions that that

erase the charity mindset for one thing and number two create uh here I'm going to use that word sustainability or some sort of process that that essentially they're phasing out the donor. That's what I That's the part I don't understand is I've this is a bold you've had a bold statement. Here's my bold statement. If you've been helped, the natural next thing is help the next pay it forward. Yeah. But you don't do that when you know the West is going to send more money. You have no no reason to be self- sustaining. It's it's it really is a problem. I I that's why we do what we do with the the audits. It's it's an audit that's not to catch people. It's just to look and say there's too much money going here or that that sustainability project is not authentic, right? It's not. It's going to be empty. There's no chance, right? And then let's don't build another one right next to it. That doesn't make any sense. Like that's why you have to have boots on the ground. I'm I am convinced that even a well-run machine nonprofit, which there are plenty. Mhm. Um their audits aren't as efficient as they need to be because they're still working closer. They're close to the the people and there's just trust. Like, you know, once again, no one wants to think a pastor as being, you know, inauthentic, but doesn't mean they can't be. This doesn't mean they can't be, you know. Uh Our goal should be to eliminate the need for uh foreign aid. Okay. You you know so how how do we do that? You know um for one thing governments need and and by the way these governments in most of these African countries are wealthy wealthy wealthy wealthy. Yes. the the you go into the wealthy areas of of Karen district in Nairobi, there are mansions in there and it's all That's right. the money being sent by the government, if it trickled down, we wouldn't need to donate anything. But do they put a pipeline, a water pipeline? Kenya is the size of Texas. Yeah. And Texas has a oil pipeline running about every 10 feet around this whole state as well as water everywhere. That's right. So why why can't they put that kind of infrastructure in in Kenya in the year 2025? They could, but they don't because more foreign aid comes in for water related, you know, if they solve the problem, Noah will give to the problem. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. And uh so with that said, that that needs to happen and and we need to shift our focus. And I'll give I'll give you an example. A gentleman came to our church a couple years ago. He's in Zambia and he has, excuse me, an orphanage that rescues kids. They're, you know, growing and doing well. And when he gave his story uh and was done, the pastor started praying and said, "Okay, we're going to pray for you." And he was praying for growth of this ministry in Zambia and and and more locations, more structures. And it made me think we should be praying that it goes away less. That's right. Pray for less. We need, you know, now there's always going to be orphans and there's always gonna be people in need, right? But but to continue to grow, grow, grow means that something is failing in the system. You're making a business of something that doesn't need to be a business, right? And it should be looked as temporary. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And and if in fact there are more orphans now for example in Kenya now than there were 25 years ago. Uh now of course we could say the population is tripled as well but the problem's not being fixed because I can guarantee orphan children in the United States and I don't know the facts here or the numbers so don't hold me to it but I can guarantee there's less orphans now than there were in say 1920. Right. Right. you know, if you're building the system, right? Should be. Right. Well, and we have a foster system, which by the way, they're looking at they're implementing that in a lot of African countries as well, a foster system. You said something a minute ago. I'm going to change topics a little bit and that is you were talking about the sensitivity to the culture, the language, the country. And I I want to dig into that a little bit because you were telling me something the other day that we make a lot of assumptions here in the west that everything's done the way we do it. Meaning there's a ministry or nonprofit over there. You know, they don't really call we call our side nonprofit. M I don't know what the term for in every country is but we make these assumptions of like oh if I'm giving this if we're buying land so that we can grow a farm if we're building this power plant or solar plant that if that pastor dies that it'll pass down. It's not true. Some countries when that guy dies his kids get the property and everything you've been pouring into vanishes in a like a mist. Yes. Every country has different laws and and I won't go into detail here uh right now because I would want to have facts in front of me. Um but but yes, every country has different laws how it what it considers a nonprofit or a charitable organization in the in the country that they're at. Uh sometimes the the founder does hold the rights to property and things like that. I I've I've learned and uh sometimes the entity does. Uh however, there are some countries and again I won't be specific because I'm not a lawyer but uh there are some organiz countries that you know three generations or or two generations after the a founder has a nonprofit it reverts back to the to the kid grandkids and and just weird stuff like that. It's a very complex and you know and I'm speaking in Africa you know the whole world you know we could be talking about Brazil or whatever but we've been focusing on Africa in this talk you know uh bureaucracy is a real thing there and uh they they can create paperwork and a nightmare of little rules and and odd you know structures and things when it comes to forming a nonprofit, right? And and once again, you know, let's say I'm I'm gonna make this scenario up, but let's say somebody found a church that was sponsored for 10 years. They were living high and they, you know, were were doing some good work. I'm not saying they're doing nothing, right? We're not implying everybody takes a check and does nothing, but that happens. But it's rare than doing something. But let's say you you you you bought the car, you bought the land, you you did the thing, and then the whale dries up, like meaning that church isn't funding you anymore. Well, then you then what? Then that then people are sell they can they can sell the land. They can right turn it into a forprofit. And we're like, "Wait a minute. I thought we I thought we were what happened to that thing we were doing?" Nobody's looking. No one's following up. No one's putting procedures in. when I say no one. It's rare that people are putting procedures in place to help to to to hand it off or to to be a success story, whatever that means. Well, greed is a big thing and and it is here to and uh not only greed but but the selfishness of you know a founder to a ministry tends to not want to let go of control and you know they're the founder and they have every right to have that, you know, with the vision. So over there it's the same and so secession I guess is what you're you're saying or you know is a struggle. Um but you were talking about money drying up. There was a a school built by a church in California up in the highlands of Kenya. Beautiful school with the swimming pool to teach kids to swim and and uh it was stolen from the church from within. the the staff hired attorneys and not government officials to forge documents and essentially took this property away from them, the church. So the church said, "Fine, it's yours. We we're not funding it." Even though they built a multi-million dollar thing. Uh last time I was up there, it is a private school owned by the people who stole it. They they rent the swimming pool out for parties and weddings and and you know it's just you know they were able to sustain after the funding of the church left but uh I don't think that was the intentions of the founders of whoever you know built that. Yeah. You know and that happens all the time. Yeah. There's a lot of stories. I know uh of of a case that it's a sad case wor way worse than that but uh a church was giving and I think it was probably India went in Africa and uh they they just felt like the money was being wasted and they they sent a team over and uh the guy was got caught and they were they were going to be gracious. Yeah. They weren't going to they were going to be gracious and they they they they confronted him said we'll meet you in the morning and talk about and the guy killed himself that night really because he knew he knew he was busted. It was his honor was gone. Wow. And you know they felt horrible like what do we do? And you know I've thought about that a lot a lot as you and I were talking about you know doing audits for people just because there has to be cultural sensitivity. M there has to be a way to maybe send a third party person over and not, you know, just put boots on the ground. Yeah. We can't keep sending money blindly, right? It's a problem. Well, and and you know, again, the idea isn't to to go with intentions of wrecking people or finding you you know, gotcha moments. Yeah. Yeah. Definitely. I I mean, you can go grab my checkbook and I'm sure there's mess ups in there of me balancing something wrong or forgetting something, you know, so you know, there's grace and going over and saying, "Listen, you know, you guys, we know you're doing good work. We we but you know, we want to make sure you know that the donors who are paying for this that we're we're making sure that their money is going to a good cause and being truthful." That's right. You know, well, even even questions like this, this church or this foundation or this family is sending you $100,000 a year. What's your answer if that got cut in half next year? What if it was doubled? Hearing people's answers and being on the ground and oh, I'd build this or I'd fix this. Like hearing Let You and I have been around long enough. We can smell Oh, yeah. You can smell the answer. Yeah. and just asking tough questions and you know back it it blends in with the cultural deal here in America we look we frown on nepotism like you know is your kids on the board is your wife on the board are are your books closed or not which is that's what those right e ECFA guidear is supposed to eliminate but certain cultures if your family is not on the board something's fishy right right you know like it doesn't mean we you have to go and have a case byase basis based on cultural situations. There is no clipboard check sheet and you've got to ask the right questions, poke open the right closets, look in the right doors to then come back and say, I think that organization we could pour more into, right? That's a good one. And there are many of them. There's there's many. It's not like all amazing things. Oh, of course. And and you wish they had more money while there's others that were funneling money into. was like, uh, cuz you mentioned this before, too. I know this side maybe better than you, but you know that side way better than me. But when you create the machine that gets donations, you need a story to tell to keep the money flowing. And so sometimes we h not only sending money, but what we do to create the stories. We need more kids. Yes, we need more problems to keep the machine rolling because we have overhead over here that we got to keep going. Yeah, keep feeding the machine. Keep feeding the machine.

I can't tell you how many times I've been in, you know, Kabira slum, Kawangui slum, uh, Ay River Slum, different places, uh, and seen their staff there struggling to find more children to sponsor and get stories and, uh, to the point that that they're willing to pay organizations that are already established there to leave that kid. Yeah. to to you know and and and again this organization does a lot of great stuff too but again it's a machine and and you know what I don't like that you know uh either uh again that organization does you know it's changed many thousands of children's lives so so what did you do you know uh but yeah yeah it's it's it's a

Well, let's don't stop. I know we focus a lot on Africa, but some we're not just picking on them. This is true all over the world. You just have a lot of experience in Africa, which is why we landed there. But it it's this it's a heart problem. So, the heart problem is everywhere. and blindly throwing money, which is what the West, but you know, um, UK, Europe, Canada, US, Australia, we're all guilty of it. Oh, yeah. We all throw money thinking money solves the problem, and it really doesn't. So, at least we can be strategic, at least have some accountability to ourselves and to the people we're giving money to. We're doing them a favor, right? Yeah. You I want to end on this. You you said a story to me the other day that you met a guy that was doing amazing things and you were you said you were going to wake up the next day and make some phone calls and sort of tell the world like I found a guy and then you said you told me you I paused because I realized that may ruin what he's doing. Yeah. And it's like because that's that's our heart is that like call me when you need something and I'll get you what you need. Right. But just don't pull him into the machine. That was a gentleman who was a survivor of the Rwanda genocide as a baby. His whole family was killed. He was left for dead and found uh found as a baby on a pile of bodies. Wound up uh growing up and now he is rescuing, you know, street kids and stuff. Amazing guy. And you're 100% right. I spent a lot of time with him and thought, man, I could help this guy. and I backed off and yes, we've helped this guy, but not to the the point I, you know, we could have. Yeah. And and you know, he said a few things that that made me refrain and kind of step back, you know, as I was analyzing him and and he was answering questions of why he would do with say half a million US dollars. Yeah. You know, and and I just realized that and it's not up to me. Yeah. I don't want to make it sound like I'm the the keeper of We're not the keepers, you know. Yes. Uh but I just kind of stepped back a little bit and thought, well, let's take it kind of slow because uh well, slow is slow is good. Yeah. Once again, what do you do with a little? What do you do with more? What do you do with more? And some people have had so much money they look for ways to spend it. Oh, yeah. Yeah. They have Well, like you said, they have to create stories and create uh new thing ways to spend it. That's right. New fundraising. We built we built we built this thing and now we need a second floor. Now we need a third floor. Well, now we need a fence around it. Well, now we need a water well for it. And just and then you're like, "What? Why?" At the end of the day, US oversight tools do what they're built to do. Guidear ECFA audits, they confirm the paperwork. But real accountability doesn't happen in a boardroom or on a PDF. It happens when someone is standing right there in the dust watching the money in action. That's the gap we're trying to close. If we want donor trust to rise and impact to match the stories we tell, then we have to put eyes and boots where the dollars go. And that's what Open Trust Global exists to do. See the work firsthand, ask the hard questions, and make sure every gift actually becomes the good it was intended to be.